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Author Topic: Ableton Help Thread  (Read 7449 times)

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April 19, 2011, 12:16:06 PM
Reply #30

TyranxX

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Quote
there is a lot of room for something really special and unexpected to happen, which i think is awesome!  i just need a computer that can handle the extreme amount of audio clips PLUS do some midi with massive or zebra or something else.

Beautiful, I hope to make a good live system for myself eventually, ATM my performance flow is quite basic...

I really like how you kind of, leave it up to the cosmos, and create an opportunity to make something amazingly unexpected happen.   

I like that a lot.... 

If you have things set up correctly, I can see unexpected results, but not a chance of trainwrecking...

No way jose...

Thanks for that post guys! <3  It got me thinking a lot. 
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April 19, 2011, 12:18:14 PM
Reply #31

TyranxX

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oh that wasn't the right text for the quote....

LAWL, TyranxX DislexX ia


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April 19, 2011, 01:18:24 PM
Reply #32

squee.isme

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so wait... are you trying to record a hardware synth, or are you just trying to record automation?  i am pretty sure that you don't need to setup any midi drivers to do this.  just midi-map ctrl+m and decide which knobs you want to automate.  record the automation of those synths.  then on the right, there is a drop down, right now it says volume, but you can change it.  it should have the automation lines you recorded in there... just pick one, lets say 'filter cutoff', and the automation you made will show up.  from there you can draw the automation and change it with your mouse...


am i right?  this works in logic and cubase, i am pretty sure its the same in ableton.  you may not press 'record', there may be a different 'write' type button, this i don't know
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April 19, 2011, 01:47:10 PM
Reply #33

squee.isme

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just went into ableton... just make sure 'OVER' is pushed, this will let yu overdub midi.  also saw that it is super easy to configure which parameters of your synth you can change (this mostly will have to do with synths that aren't pre midi mapped for ableton, i noticed with 'discodsp'). 

i didn't actually midi-map for tweaking knobs, since i did not have a midi controller plugged in.  but it seems super easy to go to your synth in ableton, press 'configure', go to the synth and touch the knobs you wanna automate, midi-map those knobs with ctrl+k, and then press record and go to town.  in that drop down on the right where i said there is volume, you also have the option to show 'used automation'.  that will bring up your automation line for you to tweak after you have recorded. 

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April 19, 2011, 03:27:13 PM
Reply #34

willsanquil

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I think Tyranxx is referring to a problem/issue in Ableton where you are not able to record the automation of all parameters within the Envelopes section of a clip being used in session view.  For instance...

You have an Operator patch in ableton, you tie the filter cutoff to the Mod Wheel.  You have a clip running in session view, and you arm record and start jamming away with the Mod Wheel.  Since the Mod Wheel is a 'standard' MIDI signal, Ableton has no problem recording this automation.

However, say you have Operator and a bunch of FX in a Rack and you have some Macro knobs set up.  If you try to record the movements of the macro knobs in said clip view, it will not work.  It totally works in arrangement view, but not in session.

Oh, regarding some of your points

#1 - MIDI driver and sending MIDI out of Ableton and Back in - the software that is used for this on the PC is MIDIYoke - Tom Cosm has a video about this called IAC Driver (mac version) or Clitch I believe, which is very very interesting.  A cooler and much longer/more in depth video concerning Dummy Clips and making your own auto-glitch machine in Ableton is linked here:

http://forum.isratrance.com/tom-cosm-does-it-again/

You should definitely check this out, as it enables you to record and randomize all your favorite FX in Ableton, which is a godsend for a darkpsy live set or so I would think...once you've created the template as shown in Tom's video you can send any of your stems/synths to that channel for the win....I think it would probably solve the problem you are having or enable you to do what you want to do in a slightly different way.

But yeah, I pretty much agree with Squee - I think you're making it overly complicated.  From what you've told me you use Analog and Operator pretty exclusively, and all of their parameters are easily automatable...

From what I gather from your post, you're wanting to construct patches and clips in session to do shit live, yeah?  In that case what I would do is start building a library of macro/performance based patches.  One of the coolest things byfar about Ableton is being able to set up macros that change multiple parameters at the same time *while being within the limits that you set* - for instance, say the cutoff filter on a patch only sounds good from 20% to 50%...

bind the cutoff to a macro knob, go into mapping mode, change the level of the cutoff knob to .2 instead of 0, and to .5 instead of 1.

If you have a bunch of macro knobs that are smart like this and a MIDI controller you can slam the parameters of each macro knob up and down but it will still sound good (as long as your patches are set up correctly).  This also restricts you down to 8 knobs, which is great because IDK about you but I don't fancy the prospect of completely editing a patch in a performance environment.
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April 19, 2011, 07:13:46 PM
Reply #35

Veracohr

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I was just having a problem last night that bugged the shit out of me, although by that point it was 1 in the morning and my old ass was tired and not thinking clearly.

I had a few clips in Session mode, and I recorded a sequence of them into Arrangement mode. There was some mod wheel action I didn't record into the clips of one channel, so I tried to record that during the sequence recording, but it wouldn't record! I'm not sure, but I think it might have had something to do with the fact that channel had it's pan knob automated. Like it somehow negated all other MIDI automation. I couldn't do it live, and I couldn't overdub it later either. I could hear the modulation, it just wouldn't record.

On a side note, with situations like these I marvel at how UNuseful the manual is. It really is an entirely deficient manual. And the ring binding sucks too.
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April 19, 2011, 07:57:21 PM
Reply #36

willsanquil

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yah some things just wont record in session :\  hopefully they will fix that shit with ableton 9.  and add automation curves.  and user defined keybinds.  and other cool shit.
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April 19, 2011, 08:46:51 PM
Reply #37

Veracohr

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yah some things just wont record in session :\  hopefully they will fix that shit with ableton 9.  and add automation curves.  and user defined keybinds.  and other cool shit.

That's the other thing - I couldn't overdub the modulation by switching to the Arrangement screen either.

Usually when I get to some annoying wall like this is when I export and switch back to Digital Performer.
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April 19, 2011, 10:33:49 PM
Reply #38

willsanquil

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I just enabled record in session view and jammed out on my MIDI controller for a bit and while nothing is automated in the clips in session view all of my automation is recorded in arrangement view...idk why that didn't work for you :\
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April 22, 2011, 04:09:13 PM
Reply #39

TyranxX

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First off, thank you all for putting much time and energy into this issue...

@squee,  You can record automations in session view with 3rd party vsts such as discoDSP, or vanguard.
It's the ableton core synths that do not support this right out of the box. 

@will, thank you for the links, you understand what i am going for, i'll go over them today after i'm done workin...

I do have a huge habit of over processing and over complicating things, and my new racks are way simpler.  I'm mostly creating my own kicks and basses in ableton with operator, and tuning them together with the frequency range scopes, which in the end, makes it way easier to get the sound i'm looking for without having to completely reprocess it.


Back to the automation issue...


The ableton core synths do not support recording of automations in session view, only arrangement view.

So you need to do some tricky rerouting to accomplish it. 

One method, which was described and posted by will, using 3rd party midi drivers...  I have gotten it to work perfect once, but it requires two midi tracks, and is ugly, and requires lots of pre thought which takes away from the spontaneous aspect of creating a session loop to work with.

The audio way "routing the synth to an audio file and recording the data and automations directly into an audio sample" is nice, and gives you a hefty stock of samples to work with in the long run...  It is impossible to go back and make adjustments unfortunately.  You spend a lot of time touching up the audio file vs moving automations around the get the sound you wanted...

I read that, if you use a "midi panel" or whatever it is called, to route your midi before hand, vs relying on your midi controller driver ect...

You can have more control over the routing of ze midi, making it possible to record automations in session...

off the top of my head example...

You will be able to route the midi on a kernal level, instead of a program level.  So you will be working with midi signals that indefinitely exist vs signals that ableton have created on it's own.

You would have the pre DAW functionality of using a 3rd party virtual midi driver, without having to use/reroute multiple midi tracks in order to control one synth...

You could configure knobs to control many things on the fly, bypassing ableton's midi routing handicaps.

That is based off of instances i have read about, where people had no issues recording automations in session view out of the box, due to their style of hardware set up...

Another way I heard worked, which is simple, yet i have not been able to get it working cause.... I'm a dirty dino...

Edit the midi cc's on your controller to the paremeter you want to control, so that you don't have to midi map at all.

The midi mapping function might be what is fuqueen everything up, causing ableton to have to route midi on a different program level...

Does anyone know how to find out which CCs control which knobs in a given ableton core synth?  That is mostly what is keeping me from attempting the simple "changing the hardware CCs method".




« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 04:16:07 PM by TyranxX »
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April 22, 2011, 04:41:12 PM
Reply #40

TyranxX

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so yes, processing the midi before ableton is the fix for this...  :)
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April 22, 2011, 06:21:14 PM
Reply #41

Veracohr

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Does anyone know how to find out which CCs control which knobs in a given ableton core synth?

Not really applicable since the MIDI learn function maps the knob to the CC you use. I don't use Live's synths, but I do use Native Instruments synths which also have MIDI learn functions, and I've never seen anything like a CC-function map as you would for a hardware synth.
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April 22, 2011, 09:36:56 PM
Reply #42

willsanquil

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why don't you just write the automation of the clips in beforehand?

all this stuff about recording the automation and all these crazy methods...I can understand the desire to record the movements of your MIDI controller in real time....

but nearly *every* parameter of the core synths (and most 3rd party vsts) and macro knobs can be fully automated however you want within the clips

oh!  I have a nice workaround.  say you have a lead that's a loop, the pattern is 4 bars and you want it to play for 32 bars.  You have all your shit routed to your midi controller or however you want to do it,you're in arrangement view, you hit play and record all your shit.  So say you recorded the automation for the filter cutoff.  Right click the cutoff, show the automation in a new lane.  Copy that automation lane, go into session view where you have that 4 bar loop as a clip.  unlink your envelope and make a 32 bar length envelope and paste the automation in there!

I just tried this out and it worked perfectly!

You don't even have to change the project or anything. So...you have your clip in session view.  Just paste it over into arrangement view and clip the red button on the top to override session view with arrangement, jam out and record your knob movements, then copy the automation layers over from arrangement to session.

sure, it's not perfect but it sure as fuck beats all that convoluted nonsense of sending MIDI out and back in, or recording the stuff into audio clips.
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April 23, 2011, 10:18:10 AM
Reply #43

LORD ZOOPY THE TERRIBLE

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JUST KIDDING I'M WRONG I THINK
« Last Edit: April 23, 2011, 12:17:19 PM by LORD ZOOPY THE TERRIBLE »
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April 23, 2011, 03:37:09 PM
Reply #44

TyranxX

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the point is not have to write with a annoying mouse, but being able to record the automations into session view.  i know writing directly into arrangement increases the amount you get done, but i still think  its dumb, and im not into being forced to do anything because a programmer got lazy.
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